How much is this Zeiss Opton Sonnar worth?

[Amin Sabet]

Prior to my wife saying "No", I was looking at the 50/1.5 Sonnar in this sale at RFF (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/13722/cat/3/limit/recent/date/1220450859). Even though I'm not allowed to buy it, I was wondering what a fair price would be.

[Brian]

$150 is a good price for an EX+ 50mm F1.5 Zeiss Opton Sonnar. About the same price for an S-Mount 5cm f1.4 Nikkor. $200 is probably the high-side, and $100 is low-side. The one on RFF was recently CLA'd, so it will go on the higher side.

I've been buying pre-war CZJ 5cm f1.5 Sonnars to convert to LTM. On average, $150 seems to be the going rate. I've lucked out on some BIN's, and took risk on some that needed to be taken apart and cleaned. (One had to be cut out of the mount with a dremel because of misassembly.) But- $150 seems to be the average for a nice one, without a recent CLA, means it will probably need the surfaces on each side of the aperture cleaned. 30 Minute job at Most. Probably Pay closer to $200 for one that has been fully serviced.

[Amin Sabet]

Thanks Brian, that was very helpful. When you publish your guide, I may buy one of these and try to convert it.

[digitalintrigue]

I started my search a couple of days ago for a Sonnar f/1.5 but haven't seen anything in that price range yet. Although I missed out on what appeared to be a very nice Contax IIIa that went for a bit over $200 with the lens.

[digitalintrigue]

Any experts care to comment about this lens?

http://www.rangefinderrestorations.com/photo_posts/5015Zeiss.jpg

[Brian]

It looks like the mount from a Leica Collapsible Summicron, LTM, with the CZJ optics module mounted using a custom part.

The J-3 approach is WAY easier. If you are picky, get a 1950's to early 1960's J-3 in LTM to start with. The machining is better than those that followed.

I posted some instructions for the conversion. I can answer questions as people try this. But I'm not taking apart any of my lenses for it! Maybe next conversion job, I'll photograph more details...

http://www.ziforums.com/showthread.php?p=337&posted=1#post337

[digitalintrigue]

Hmm. Well this one is way easy for me, because it's already done. :) Is that an Opton or a Jena? I want a Sonnar 1.5, but am still in the learning phase.

[Brian]

This looks like a pre-war, uncoated Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm F1.5.

I can see that they filed/polished down the front of the original Contax Mount, probably used it to place the optics in the Summicron/Summitar focus mount. Probably collimated it using the original shims in the Contax mount.
Let us know how it performs.

[digitalintrigue]

The modified lens is available for sale for $295. I guess it's not a bad deal, if it is nice glass and properly collimated with good focus. Still pondering.

[Brian]

That's a good price for a custom lens. I would ask to see test shots.

I've got one in testing now.

[digitalintrigue]

As luck would have it, the seller in the RFF ad that Amin linked above sold the Contax body, and I was able to snag the 50/1.5 and the 50/2 for a good price. Amin, please tell your wife 'thank you.' :)

So now the question is, do I get a contax-M adapter, or do I follow Brian's instructions and mount the 1.5 in a J3...

I'll probably have the 50/2 cleaned and then sell it...

[Brian]

Edit: The upper portion of the threads that the retaining ring screws into DOES match the J-3. It will not clear the inner diameter of the Summitar mount. It "might" work in a J-3, and I will be looking for one with bad glass to find out. The threads are up higher, and I am not sure if it will collimate without some extra hacking. The 5cm f2 post-war CZJ 5cm f2 DID change thread size, is slightly bigger in diameter- I tried it in a J-8 mount. I have not taken a post-war CZJ 5cm F1.5 apart.

[digitalintrigue]

Hmm, ok that settles things then, need to acquire an adapter.

[Brian]

I'm currently testing a CZJ 5cm F1.5 conversion.

http://flickr.com/photos/oldcamerapictures/sets/72157611139279105/

The Epson 3170 scanner does not do justice, but it shows the setpoint for the focus is good for close-up and wide-open. Infinity is best at F2.8 or so, where the Sonnar shift works in your favor.

If it's as near nice as my 1938 lens, I'm putting it up for sale here. I'm thinking $300plus shipping is a fair price. It's the first one that I'm considering for sale. I did conversions for two friends that supplied the parts, they like them. I'm interested in people's feedback on this.

[Brian]

I've taken apart the parts Zeiss-Opton 50mm F1.5 Sonnar that I have. The retaining ring required some real force to get out- the threads of the optics module had some damage.

BUT: I have verified that the threads are the same as the pre-war lens.

The Zeiss Opton uses a different method to holds the optics module into its mount. The module drops in, a guide pin holds it in place, and a retaining ring screws in to hold it in. This is unlike the Carl Zeiss Jena lenses that simply screw into the mount. The advantage of the Zeiss-Opton is that the F-Stop ring does not need to be adjusted every time you shim the lens.

Now the important part: This "MIGHT" mean that we can convert a post-war Carl Zeiss Opton 50mm F1.5 using a J-3 LTM mount. I'm not going to take apart my existing converted lenses to find out. I will be on the look-out for a bad-glass J-3 in LTM to try this out. I have three working CZO 50/1.5's, including a KEH Ugly that I cleaned up. (Not including the just-for-parts lens)

If anyone has a bad-glass J-3 that wants to try out on this experiment, let me know.

[digitalintrigue]

Interesting news. I'll keep an eye out for J-3s.

What about a 50/2 like this? J-8?

[Brian]

I tried my post-war CZJ 5cm F2 "T" in a J-8 mount, it did not fit. The diameter of the lens increased slightly.

BUT- it's worth trying. I've found some construction differences in these lenses. Two distinct types of CZO 50mm F1.5 lenses that surprised me.

[Brian]

I tried placing the Zeiss Opton optics module into a J-3 mount, it did not fit. The diameter is bigger and taper is different. The threads are the same, but the module did not reach them when placed into the J-3 mount, was hung-up by the mismatch of the taper.

SO: Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm F1.5 optics modules with serial number below 3Million will fit. I'm not sure about the CZJ F1.5 post-war lenses. CZO lenses do not fit. I'm going to keep experimenting, the end-goal to modify CZO lenses for LTM or M-Mount.

[digitalintrigue]

Sounds good. Keep us posted. :)

[Brian]

Okay- I've been playing with my "junk" CZO 50mm F1.5 lens, and a Helios-103. The goal is to convert these lenses to LTM "in a cost-effective manner". The optics modules from these lenses fit into the Leitz close-up helical for the collapsible lenses. The close-up adapter is NOT RF coupled. So the trick is going to be to grind and polish the extended helical down to make an RF coupling out of it. I paid $40 for my helical, and am going to hack it. May be a one-way trip to the scrap heap. But, it is worth a shot. I mounted the helical in my TTL viewer, and could position the lenses with enough stand-off to acheive infinity focus. This trick is to grind the helical down to that RF coupling matches true focus. Otherwise, it is a scale-focus only setup.

I'll keep people posted, if it works it should be repeatable.

The other option is to use a Summarit for its focus mount. I'm NOT using my Summarits for this...

[digitalintrigue]

Brian, is the helical you are speaking of?

http://www.rangefinderrestorations.com/photo_posts/helical.jpg

[Brian]

That's the one! You just saved me from having to post a picture.

Take a look at the back of it- you need to file the outer helical down to the thread mount, like a regular lens. Then the inner helical needs to be ground and polsihed to the point where it is an RF cam. It will end up looking like an Elmar mount- but the "moth" is much bigger. The Zeiss Opton optics module and the Helios-103 module both could be placed in it and acheive infinity focus. The variable-standoff ring of the Zeiss Opton makes a nice contact with the mount, and can serve to collimate the lens.

[digitalintrigue]

Brian, do you know if one of these can be taken apart and used for this purpose?

http://www.ritzcam.com/catalog/images/NHesumx.jpg

[Brian]

I do not believe so: I saw one at a show last week. The helical w/o the glass tends to go cheaper. Just do not see as many.

[jarski]

I tried placing the Zeiss Opton optics module into a J-3 mount, it did not fit. The diameter is bigger and taper is different. The threads are the same, but the module did not reach them when placed into the J-3 mount, was hung-up by the mismatch of the taper.

good to know, but its shame that "Jupiter trick" cannot be used with Optons.

ot: just won Sonnar 50/f2 (#1866551) at $60, according to seller from 1936. and have J-8 from 1955 on the radar. so am "waiting for mail" which popular thread in RFF :)

[Brian]

I'm ging to try a CZO conversion- using a Summarit helical. Not cheap.

The 5cm F2 Sonnar to J-8 conversion is much like converting the F1.5 lens. One exception: you also have to swap the aperture rings. The "winged" ring of the earlier F2 lenses is too thick to fit into the J-8 mount. Not true in all cases, but most.

[jarski]

The 5cm F2 Sonnar to J-8 conversion is much like converting the F1.5 lens. One exception: you also have to swap the aperture rings. The "winged" ring of the earlier F2 lenses is too thick to fit into the J-8 mount. Not true in all cases, but most.

ok, thanks. one more Q: do the screw holes match in both aperture rings ? or drilling required ?

its going to be interesting spring :) I have also Summar and Summitar roughly same age.

[Brian]

The screws are the same size- BUY, you will need to tap out new holes for the set screws to go into. I use a triple-zero drill bit on a hand drill.

[Brian]

Okay: I got the Summarit apart, and tried the Ziess Opton in it. The shape of the aperture control ring prevents the optics module from going far enough into the Summarit Helical to collimate.

Either a portion of the Summarit Helical needs to be polished down a few millimeters, or a new aperture cone needs to be made for the Ziess Opton. I tried three lenses, all slightly different construction. The early Optons use a retaining ring to hold the rear glass in -like a late J-3, the later ones have a section that unscrews like a CZJ Sonnar.

Photo of the J-3 next to the Opton shows why it and CZJ Sonnars work, but Ziess Optons do not "just drop in".

The variable stand-off ring of the Opton Sonnar fits perfectly into the Summarit Mount, and would be used to collimate the opton. That is IF something else gives up a few millimeters.

[raid]

Brian,
The Summarit would be a great host lens barrel for a Zeiss Opton module. The machining is great.

[Brian]

I've been thinking about it. The aperture ring would have to be modified. Might be possible to take the aperture ring off, cut it down, and put in a fork to catch the screw that controls the aperture mechanism.

I'm still thinking on it. The other possibility is to shave a few millimeters off the Sommarit Focus Mount- a heavy brass retaining ring. I do not like that idea, as it would not be possible to go back if it does not work. I have the spare parts lens that I got from you- might try modifying the aperture control mechanism. I sound like Scotty.

[blakehoo]

I was just the underbidder on an ebay auction for a nice Zeiss opton 50mm f1.5 T (serial number 1053808) from Kent, UK.
Lens sold for US$519.
I wanted that lens...
Wish I'd not listened to the "experts"

[Brian]

Prices will come back to Earth. I sold one to a friend for $150, and one on this forum that had some coating damage for $100. The latter one cleaned up nicely, and the marks had no real effect on the image.

Home of the Hundred Dollar Zeiss Opton 50/1.5, plus some example photo's:

http://ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=242

I bought two 5cm F1.5 Carl Zeiss Jena lenses recently for $120 and $150, respectively. I convert them to Leica Mount.

Post some pictures with your Contax! I have a lot of galleries done with the CZJ 5cm F1.5 lenses. I also added a post war 5cm F1.5 CZJ Sonnar "T" to my COntax lenses. I need to shoot a test roll. I paid $110 for it with shipping.

I like the Zeiss Opton Sonnar, but find the CZJ Sonnars just as good and they have not gone crazy in price.

[Brian]

I just got back a roll with the post-war carl Zeiss Jena 5cm F1.5, bought for a little over $100. VERY NICE! Mine is not perfect glass, some slight coating damage around the edge of the glass. No real effect on the image. Much less severe than the separation that i see in a lot of the Zeiss opton lenses.

The Postwar CZJ 5cm F1.5 is a new design, larger diameter optics than the pre-war and wartime lenses. It also has some simplification of how the rear optics are held in place, more like a late J-3. I suspect the late J-3 imitated the CZJ design.