So when do we get our digital Ikon ... sorry, couldn't resist!

[Keith]

What an opportunity to be the first fool to ask this question on a brand new forum ... I couldn't let it pass! :p

It comes up constantly on 'the other forum' and always results in everyone running around in circles panting for something that can bloody the M8's nose ... though deep down I think we're running out of hope!

But I had to post the question here ... just so we can be like everyone else and so that people who have migrated from the RFF Zeiss/Ikon forum to here can have reassuringly familiar things around them! :D

[Amin Sabet]

What an opportunity to be the first fool to ask this question on a brand new forum ... I couldn't let it pass! :p


I thought about having this thread already in place for the site launch, but that wouldn't have been fair, would it :D?

Seriously, though. I think it's good to have these threads. There's always a chance that someone from Zeiss looking for evidence of demand.

I guess everyone has probably seen this interview back in 2006 with Winfried Scherle (http://keppler.popphoto.com/blog/2006/09/speaking_frankl.html)?

Q: There are rumors that Zeiss will eventually have its own digital rangefinder camera body that will accept the M mount lenses. True or false? Will it be Cosina-made? Full 24 x 36mm sensor? At Carl Zeiss, we can imagine such a camera. But we feel that is not the right time to introduce such a camera now. Today digital technology is still developing fast and the initial value of a digital camera is lost in quite a short time. Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers and will therefore require a high level of maturity of products before we can justify to offer them to our customers. At the time we introduce such a camera we want to be sure that the owner has invested in a long term value.
1. It is much too early to determine a manufacturer for such a camera.
2. Full 24 x 36 is, as far as we see today, for a variety of reasons the preferred sensor size of most serious rangefinder photographers.
Has there been anything on the topic from Zeiss since then? I don't know if they can yet implement one in a rangefinder, but obviously full frame 35mm sensor tech has come a long way since 2006.

[cwroundabout]

There were rumbles about a Nikon D3m a while back... I suppose those were way off the mark. The Japanese companies seem to respect each other and let each carve out a niche; perhaps they understand a Canon or Nikon 20+ mp rangefinder would simply obliterate Leica - and in the end who profits from that? High end digital seems to be maturing now into "FX" sized sensors in the 20-25 mp size range. Could a Sony/Zeiss or CV/Zeiss unit be far behind; and what about a joint venture between Leica and Matsushita (Panasonic)? With those two companies fused they could create a totally new dynamic... The bigger question becomes: as the global economy deteriorates will R&D and creativity (risk taking) fall, or will it force weaker companies to consolidate/merge with healthier ones? With Nikon pricing the D3x at 8k US, will they reinforce the trend of "Pro" cameras becoming out of reach for all but the few commercial photographers who can justify what will be a disposable camera? How will that shape the market - or in this economy will it kill the pro market?
I'd put my money on either Leica or Zeiss entering into long-term strategic alliances with one of the bigger Japanese players, and as a result the next M-class rangefinder will be a significant upgrade from the M8/8.2, and such a move coming soon if the economy continues to falter.
And of course I'm wrong.

[Amin Sabet]

High end digital seems to be maturing now into "FX" sized sensors in the 20-25 mp size range.

With FX sensors having about 20 times the area of small sensors in compact digital cameras, it's hard for me to believe that 20-25MP is where 35mm digital will stay for very long. I think we'll see 50MP or more in FX sensors before long.

[cwroundabout]

So what would the folks in Germany do? Stand on the sidelines forever while the megapixel wars rage on for decades, or does the 25 mp level represent a good ratio of price to resolution - good enough to warrant moving now? Most importantly, this level of technical innovation is available now, requires little in the way of additional R&D, and frankly, with 50mp sensors, just how many home/hobbyist users are really going to be that interested in making 44 inch by X prints!
It might be a terrible time to introduce any new product, especially a steady stream of obscenely expensive disposables, but this mess will turn around, and these guys are going to have to be positioned to take advantage of massive pent-up demand. Honestly, doesn't the very idea of a 25mp full frame Leica M or Zeiss Ikon seem like a camera that would indeed be a perfect match for most users of current equipment. The M8/8.2 was and always will be a fatally flawed jewel and current pricing makes it a joke; what would happen to rangefinderdom if this 25mp Ikon hit the market at the price point of the current 5DMk2? I'd think even Leica would benefit from this development in the long run...

[Amin Sabet]

So what would the folks in Germany do? Stand on the sidelines forever while the megapixel wars rage on for decades, or does the 25 mp level represent a good ratio of price to resolution - good enough to warrant moving now?

I'm hoping they see the current sensors as good enough. The other issue is whether the current sensors are good enough with light striking at an angle to reduce the challenge of designing full frame cameras with short registration distances. If Leica had been technically able to make it happen, I think we'd be looking at a full frame M9 now instead of the M8.2.

Most importantly, this level of technical innovation is available now, requires little in the way of additional R&D, and frankly, with 50mp sensors, just how many home/hobbyist users are really going to be that interested in making 44 inch by X prints!

For that matter, how many home/hobbyist users are making 13x19" prints? I wasn't suggesting that Zeiss should wait for MP counts to plateau. I was just saying that 20-25MP is sort of an arbitrary point to say things have gotten to be "mature". I use a Nikon D700, and its sensor is mature from my standpoint.

what would happen to rangefinderdom if this 25mp Ikon hit the market at the price point of the current 5DMk2? I'd think even Leica would benefit from this development in the long run...

I think Leica would benefit, but I'm not sure. It doesn't help Leica that much when people buy used Leica lenses, and I'm guessing that most of the folks who can afford to buy Leica lenses brand new can also afford the price of the M8.2 and beyond. After all, the lenses drop in price by 40% as soon as you buy them!

I'm not arguing with you though. I'd just like a mechanically sound, full frame DRF at a price I can afford. Given the job they did with the Ikon, it would be great if Zeiss (in conjunction with one of the Japanese companies) were the ones to bring it.

[tedwin]

So far as I understand it the problem lies with the angle the light rays hit the sensor towards the outer edge of the frame when a wide angle lens is so close to the film plane. The inherent advantage of the rangefinder design with film, is its achilles heal with digital.

A full frame digital M mount rangefinder will need a flexible sensor (like those liquid lenses that alter there shape by electric current) or variable microlenses on the photsites or something else not yet invented and likely to be hugely expensive when eventually invented.

So lets not lose any sleep.

Anyhoo. Good luck with the new site.

Ted.

[Amin Sabet]

Ted, thanks for the well wishes on the site, and no lost sleep here :).

[gnarayan]

Probably never I'd guess. I like RFs plenty but I don't think there is much of a market for people wanting manual focus primes and a rangefinder these days.

It isn't like this shift is recent either. I'm fairly young and I think a whole generation above me were weaned on Japanese SLRs and TTL viewing and are used to it and RFs are just these quirky expensive things that for the longest time didn't get AF and you could not use with long lenses and could not get a sense of DoF with. I like them but they are odd and it took a lot of time before I plonked down for a second hand mechanical film camera that cost more than my DSLR new and in many ways is not as flexible. Heck it does not even have AE.

The angle of incidence problem can be solved even with the M mount by introducing new lenses that are more telecentric. Maybe they will be bigger but so it goes. The biggest complaint there seems to be from people wanting to keep using their existing lens collection, but they don't give Zeiss any money by using their existing lenses so why cater to them? I certainly haven't helped any companies making RF gear by buying everything used so I doubt Zeiss even really considers me part of the market for a DRF.

I imagine there is a future for small FF EVIL cameras and at least those might be able to mount M lenses but not sure how much that will appeal to the RF crowd.

Cheers,
-Gautham

[Adam]

A search on patents.com (http://www.patents.com/) for 'microlens' returns 8291 results, many of which were issued very recently and some of which are assigned to Zeiss. We can't, of course, conclude very much from that, except that either/both 1) there is a lot of innovation going on in this area or/and 2) the patent authorities have lax filters.

In emails to various pleading potential customers Zeiss reps have confirmed that they receive many requests for a Zeiss digital rangefinder, but they don't see much value in producing one until a full-frame sensor can be made to take advantage of the qualities of their lenses.

My lame prediction: Within 2.5 years Zeiss will produce a rangefinder-size 35mm full-frame digital camera in non-SLR format with interchangeable lenses that will be compatible with M-mount lenses, either via adapter or natively. It may not be a rangefinder.

[cwroundabout]

You have to wonder... could the full frame limitations be overcome through software? So hard to imagine the difficulties involved, but ten years ago who could have imagined software tackling issues as diverse as it does now...
file under more stupid questions...

[Adam]

You have to wonder... could the full frame limitations be overcome through software?

There is certainly a lot that can be done with signal processing, but if the photons aren't detected, any reconstruction of the missing data at the edge of the frame (due to lack of photons detected) will be an approximation of reality. Might make a mockery of us with our fancy lenses. 'Course, aren't our brains constantly creating an approximation of reality?

Just trying to see if I can turn this into a metaphysics thread.

[Amin Sabet]

You can add me to the list of folks who aren't physicists or engineers, However, the fact that Sigma was able to get light to the entire APS-C sensor in the DP1, which is way smaller than an Ikon, suggests to me that it can be done. As for software, both Sigma with the DP1 and Leica with the M8 have addressed the funny color in the corners through software, right?

[cwroundabout]

A metaphysics thread? Hooboy.
If photons are collected in or on an emulsion, and we develop that emulsion and carefully if reverently handle our beloved Kodachromes as actual physical reminders of our having been in that scene, in that place, what kind of memory of place does a digital image leave us. The Kodachrome is real, we can hold it in our hands...that film was in our camera, in our hands, and the photons that pickled our emulsion tickled our retina... it was real... it wasn't homogenized and pasteurized in Photoshop...
I guess the question or comment here is simply this. Sometimes late at night it's wistfully satisfying to take out a page of 'chromes and actually handle them in that context... as something almost like a friend that was there with me. We've nurtured each other over the years, and that feeling is as real as those slides.
Digital? Where are you? What are you, locked in in there on that screen? On that CF card that's been wiped clean a thousand times? A collection of zeros and ones held in suspended electro-optical animation?
I'm sorry, it's just not the same thing, is it... and isn't that why we're here musing about these things with each other?

[Brian]

Yes, well, as long as we are predicting- A digital back for the Contax IIa and IIIa. Tie the Sync into the flash sync mechanism. Done.

[riex]

After pondering a FF dSLR replacement for my 35mm SLR for 3 years and skipping the APS-C generation (not for much longer though) I ended up with a ZI RF for the same reasons cited in this aforementioned article (http://keppler.popphoto.com/blog/2006/09/speaking_frankl.html). I'm new to RF but love it for what it does. I too would like to see a digital RF (dRF ?) by Zeiss/Cosina but only if it were FF and relatively affordable. A dream machine for me would be one with, say a Sony FF sensor but not 24MP. 12MP or 16MP with good high ISO IQ and easier on my limited laptop computing power is fine for my use. Nothing against high res. sensors for those who need it though. Ideally it would have an interchangeable digital back to replace the film back so one could use both but it should not make the camera too much thicker, nor too much heavier as that would defeat the concept of the ZI RF. And why not throw in sensor based image stabilisation while we're at it (say Sony SSS). Sony & Zeiss are already partnering on lenses so...Yes, I said dream machine but isn't electronics supposed to make everything smaller, lighter and cheaper. Not exactly what dSLR's have always delivered lately. That said I love not to have to worry about battery life on my ZI RF but nothing beats the Contaflex in that respect! Ok, that was my Xmas 2020 wish list I guess.

[Alex]

I'm holding out for a digital back for my Ikonta A.