Orphan lens Zeiss Sonnar 2/50

[gorbas]

Hi Guys,
My name is Goran and I'm new to this forum.
For most of my life I was SLR user but recently I got infected with RF bug from our own Tom Abrahamsson.
By some strange coincidence I have 2 optical blocks with no real mounts of Sonnar's 2/50mm. One is #2709446 and other is
#3753994.
Older one #27…. Looks like collapsible lens but:
Iris index mark is missing
Focusing distance and holding tab are missing together with helicoids stopper and few more parts (there are few parts of helicoids but I’m not sure are they original or not????)
Mount M39 is with very sharp edges and with big ding from praying the mount.
I’m not sure was it original collapsible M39 mm lens or Contax mount.
Newer one #37…. Has big scratch on rear element but I think it’s still usable. Last summer I send this lens to Eddi S. but he wasn’t able to fit this lens in the Jupiter 8 body.
Ideally I would like to have one of those lenses mounted in M39 mount.
Any idea can I fit Sonnar #27… in Jupiter 8 body?
How I can mount newer #37 in M39 or Kiev mount?
Also I have one very nice optical block (mount free) with iris of Jupiter 9 (2/8.5cm-#6010121).
Does anybody have for sale cheap Jupiter 9 in M39 with damaged optical part so I can just swap it?
Thank you in advance
Goran

[Brian]

Welcome to the forum.

The 270xxxx optical module should screw into a Jupiter-8 LTM mount. I have used the older ones going back to 1955 and a newer one from 1986. They all work.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3131/2744039401_a4dbcbab1a_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3099/2642553444_1bec31a8e2_o.jpg

The post war lenses will not fit, the diameter of the optics and fixtures was increased.


The newer 5cm F2 CZJ post-war lens: best bet is to look for a parts lens on Ebay with bad glass. Buy it, use the aperture ring, and the mount. Same with the LTM lens. Be aware that the LTM J-9 mount is made for the Russian standard, and has problems with Leica cameras. You cannot get it to focus across the entire range. I have an ongoing project with mine.

[Brian]

And to add: the Sonnar in the M39 mount, I am guessing was used for an enlarger lens?

Either that, or it was for a fixed-focus application. It is odd, and I have not seen one. Uncommon, not too useful in its present form, and an easy conversion.

[Brian]

Here is a sample with my 270xxxx lens converted to LTM shown above:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/2769489730_9bb4a4a941_o.jpg

Wide-open.

[gorbas]

Hi Brian,
Thank you for ultra fast reply!!
Tom A. was right when he sad that you are the right person to ask about Sonnar conversions.

Previous use of prewar Sonnar M39 is still mystery to me. Seller of the lens was very stinky, trying to play being stupid “O....., I don’t know, it must be Contax mount, everything is fine and I can get $200 on EBay for it”.....

I have seen whole bunch of threads about conversion of Sonnar 1.5/50 optical block to Jupiter 3 body mount, but haven't seen many about S 2/50?

Last summer I bought whole bunch of SSSR RF lenses: Jupiter 8, Industar 26m, Industar 61, Industar 50.... Jupiter 8 that I have now is in very good condition, black, #73 .. the same kind as yours on left side of the picture with 2 RF Canon, so I will look to buy some other Jupiter 8 from Ebay.
Any sellers here???
For 85mm lens, if there are serious issues with SSSR RF M39 flange distance, shall I just buy Canon RF 85mm for use on Bessa R body?
Thank you again!
Goran

[Brian]

I would get the Canon 85/2 or 85/1.9. I have the 85/2, and it is very under-rated. It is heavy. At F2 not quite as sharp as the Nikkor 8.5cm F2, but by F4 you cannot tell the difference. The Nikkor is cutting-sharp, and does well against modern lenses.

The Canon 85/2 runs $100~$150. The Nikkor runs $250~$300.

Report back when you get a J-8 mount for the conversion.

Next time I convert a J-8, i will document it.

[photovdz]

I have a guess about the 270 mount... it looks like it's a mount for a "focusing screwmount" (like the perfex or the clarus, the mount on the body move like a contax bayonnet) hence no cam transfer and no focusing... I'll check how they work

[photovdz]

I cheecked my perfex 55 ... I confirm that it could be that ;-)

[Brian]

Now that is an uncommon lens!

Okay- how many Perfex users would trade an LTM lens for this one before it BECOMES an LTM lens?

[gorbas]

Hi Photovdz,
Interesting idea!! Thank you very much for doing detective work here!
But I still didn't figured out what is focusing helicoid doing on the lens I have??
Also there is no sign of any iris index mark any where on my lens.
Is there any chance to see picture of your "Perfex 55" lens?
You have 270 Lenses!!! WoW!!! Are they all M39 or that is just total number??
Regards
Goran
PS. My Flickr, RF pictures:http://www.flickr.com/photos/26983280@N00/sets/72157622786939862/

[photovdz]

no I was just refering at the lens 270xxxx that we are discussing...

not sure if this lens is adapted for a perfex, but there is no other body with a screw-focus mount in M39

By the way perfexes are very rough cameras...

[Brian]

I probably have close to 270 lenses... Maybe 200 or so. Most of them Nikon.

But if I count them, my wife would find out.

[gorbas]

Wow! Brian!
and I thought that I have GAS problem!??
Right now I don't have even close to your number of lenses but I think now that I was way better and happier photographer 25 years ago when I was young guy with 2 nikons and 4 lenses. With years I accumulated gear, but lost passion, subjects and time to do it.

As for project Jupiter 8-Sonnar 2/50, I'm not sure when I will take it. Right now most likely I need to spend around $50 for one and shipping. On the summer I'm going to visit my family, back home and I can buy the lens for way, way cheaper. I'm not in hurry!
Anyway, thank you for your prompt responses and all your help!
We will be in touch!
Goran

[Brian]

Keep an eye out for J-8's with bad glass. Also check rangefinderforum.com.

I just bought a 1955 J-8 that was not smooth, needed cleaning and all the set screws tightened back up. It is very smooth now. Ronsonol to get the old grease out, White Lithium Grease - smooth as butter now. It was $25.

[photovdz]

by the way, I must have more than 270 lenses...
and a lot of bodies...
10 contaxes (II,IIa,III,IIIa,G2), 7 leicas, 1 minolta cle, 5 feds, 3 olympus pen F(FV,FT), 5 om's 1,2,3,4... 4 pentaxs... 1 rollei... 4 minox, 5 rolleiflex, 3 bergheils, 6 superikontas (ABCD), 3 nikons...
some paxettes and superpaxettes... some robots... and so on
and a lot of lenses to put on them...
I even have a camera that no one else in the world possess... (an UGEIN III)

I need to scale down and specialize... ;-)
but sometimes I do take pictures too.

[Brian]

http://ziforums.com/picture.php?albumid=118&pictureid=2100

Not much to this conversion. The Collapsible optics module is screwed into the mount, and usually has one set screw in the rear holding it in. Take out the set screw, unscrew the optics module. Any version Jupiter-8 will do, this one is from early 1955 and came out very smooth after relube.

http://ziforums.com/picture.php?albumid=118&pictureid=2101

The shims are the trick. The M8 makes life easy, but I did this one with a 15x loupe. Used a Canon III to measure the distance with the RF, then a through the lens viewer to match the focus to that distance setting. The M8 made verification easy. Undo the three set screws for the Aperture ring, rotate it to the index mark. You should tap out new holes for the set screws: I use a triple-zero drill bit and a hand drill.

[gorbas]

Thank you Brian!
Looks great! I like more this older J-8 body look than newer black one!
What is your opinion regarding resolution and contrast comparison between Sonnar 2/50 and Jupiter 8?
Your latest J-8 was $25 without shipping?
Did you try to use other SSSR RF lenses for modification to CZJ beside J3 & J8??
Right now I have one Industar 61 that I can sacrifice for the "right project", but for sure another J-8 is in order.
When you make drill 000 hole do you also make threads or you just screw in it ??

Goran

[Brian]

You do not need to make new threads for the screw hole, just tap into the metal underneat the rind for the set screws to bear into. The heads are pointed, and need a small hole to grab into.

See this thread:

http://ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=97

The $25 J-8 was bought on rangefinderforum.com, and was in the US. I bpught a couple of items, including a $10 Helios-103 that needed work. Shipping was inexpensive.

The J-9 cannot fit a Zeiss 8.5cm F4 Sonnar, I tried. I have not tried a J-11 conversion yet. So far, the best luch is with the 5cm lenses.

[gorbas]

Hi Brian,
I posted "WTB-Jupiter 8" adds here and on RF forum and unfortunately there are no any offerings. There is an offer for Industar 26M but I'm not sure will Zeiss Sonnar optical block fit in to it.
I have one I-26m here but I prefer to keep it in original condition.
Do you have any experience with using I-26m?
Thank you in advance!
Goran

[Brian]

The SOnnar block will NOT fit in the I-26 mount.I have used the I-26 mount for other conversions, a pair of "monocle" lenses.

I saw your ad, but do not have any spares. Keep an eye on Ebay, that's where I get mine. Also, keep an eye on rangefinderforum.com. I bought the J-8 shown here for $25 last month. It needed a lube job and good cleaning. The optics module had some marks, not too bad.

[gorbas]

Thank you Brian!
I will keep looking here for Jupiter 8 or I will buy one next summer in Europe.
This project can wait!
Did you use positive meniscus lens to mount in I-26? I did something similar but for medium format. Should post some pictures on Flickr!
Goran

[Brian]

I used a 50mm Meniscus, made an aperture for it, and made it RF coupled. Made it for someone with a Leica M8 that wanted it to be "Leica Diana". I given away or sold (inexpensively) these lenses off.

My "strangest" I26 project was a lens made from the front of a J-8, rear of a Xenon, set in an I-26, and RF coupled.

http://ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=138

[gorbas]

Hi Brian,
Thank you very much for your earlier help!
Finally I had a chance to buy few J-8 lenses to do transplant of Sonnar 2/50- #27… optical block.
I already took apart one of them and I have few more questions for you:

-In your earlier posts you mention two kind of grease for lubricating helicoids: White Lithium Grease and Vacuum pump grease.
Which one is better for FSU lenses since their tolerances are not very tight? Here I can buy White Lithium Grease in aerosol can. Are you using solid one in the can? How much grease do you put on?

-Where is the best place to drill new set up hole to secure lens module to focusing unit-towards the front of the lens or towards the end?

-Did you ever try to polish oxidation marks on aluminum body of J-8 lens?
Thank you in advance
Goran

[Brian]

I am using white lithium grease in a Tube.

http://www.ziforums.com/picture.php?albumid=199&pictureid=1929

It works most of the time, unless the focus mount is very worn. Then I use the heavier vacuum pump grease. When you focus the lens to a know distance, go from max to min focus, and back to the object again: if you get a different distance on the second try, time for heavier grease. I had a lens that was off by 1M at 5M when I did this test.

I used Silver Polish for taking the oxidation off of a J-8 and I-61. Worked well.

[gorbas]

Hi Brian,
Well, I did it!! It worked very well!
I did lubricate 3 J-8 lenses, all silver, 2 with focusing "handle" and one with out it.
It was very simple & easy operation. I have 2 more J-8 to do. On the first 3 lubricated lenses I did test for helicoid and they looks like they are fine. Still I don't mind having little bit stiffer focusing movement.
White Lithium grease I found here (Vancouver) in "Canadian Tire" store, where do you by Vacuum pump grease??
As for transplant of Sonnar 2/50, most likely it will happened next week.
Thank you very much for all of you help and patience!
Goran

[Brian]

Good work! If you document the process, feel free to post it on the forum.

Vacuum pump grease- "Gunk" brand "Plumber's Silicone Grease" is very thick, and easy to find at a hardware store.

Vacuum pump grease- likely to find in a specialty Lab Supply shop.

[gorbas]

Hi Brian,
Well now I can fell difference between "White lithium grease" and "Plumber's Silicone Grease". After more than 30 years in photography it's my first experience with lens or camera lubrication. So far I feel as right grease should be between those two. Of course i can play with amount of lubrication to achieve right "tightness" of focusing movement.
So far I replaced optical block of J-8 with Sonnar 2/50. Now I only need to drill hole for additional screw as you instructed me. Initially I used existing "stop" screw hole with little bit longer screw and with smaller head size. Now with this combination lens passes infinity mark for few mm. Today I bought hand drill and 1.5mm bit drill. After this I think lens will be right.
Will post some pictures ASAP.
Also I'm going to post J-8 lubrication pictures.
Thank you very much
Regards
Goran

[Brian]

I look forward to seeing the pictures of the lens, and with the lens.

I'm surprised that more people have not done this conversion.

[gorbas]

Brian,
I'm going to process my first 2 rolls of film right now.
Shimming of the Sonnar was pretty straight forward. In it's original lens body it had 0.4mm wire ring, Jupiter had 1mm aluminum ring. I made 0.6 coper wire ring and it was right on. I installed old SLR focusing screen on the back of M2 and used it as TTL viewer.
My next project is going to be shimming of Jupiter 12 (2.8/35) for leica flange distance.
Interesting enough, I tried around 15 different 50 mm FSU lenses on this ring (M2+screen) and all were right on? Only J-12 showed some focusing diference?
Another thing is that only J-8 had hard focusing. All other Industars 26 and 61, from similar vintage, had way smother focusing.
Goran

[Brian]

Check the results with film. Odd that the J-12 is off, and the 50mm lenses were all on. The ground glass must be in the exact same position as the negative will sit. If it is off by 0.05mm, it makes a difference.

Also: the distance to the object makes a big difference. Close-up and Wide-open is where i see the differences. Distance shots past several meters are usually pkay with a 50.

[gorbas]

Hi Brian,
I just posted few pictures taken with this lens one week ago. I'm very happy with rendering of this lens even with small focusing error I just discovered.
I think I need to collimate this lens again. It looks like it's focusing 15-20cm in front of focusing point (on Bessa R).
For Infinity check I'm using flag pole on the top of Vancouver City hall, some 200-300 meters away from my home.
Most likely "problem" is position of focusing screen on the back of the camera.
Interesting thing that your and my Sonnar lenses are with very close numbers, just 18 numbers between them. They must be made on the same day?!
Goran

[Brian]

I have to say- The M8 makes adjusting Jupiters very easy...That was half the reason for buying one. "Not cost effective", but a great tool for adjustng lenses!

Front focus, reduce the shim slightly. Your might find that at F4 the Sonnar shift will push the focus back.

[gorbas]

Hi Brian,
I posted a few pictures in the Gallery of my finished "Sonnar optical block and Jupiter 8 body" project. Now it's time to go out and use it.
Thank you for all your help!
Goran