Sonnar Copies, Cobbled, Kludges, and Authentic

[Brian]

I went to a camera show last week and sat down with one of the dealers that I've bought from for twenty years. He brought in several "Mystery Lenses" that ran from authentic German wartime Sonnars in LTM to the strangest 5cm F1.5 Sonnar that I've seen.

My Mission: to make them work. They ranged from misassembled helicals to lenses that could not have worked- ever.

I've completed re-assembling and Hacking the five lenses into working as per the RF and TTL Viewer. Next will be to test all five with film.

I'm going to put pictures of the lenses up here. May help determine Russian copies from the real thing.

None of these are converted J-3's.

First up is the strangest 5cm F1.5 Sonnar that I've ever seen. It is a 50mm lens: the RF and actual focus agreed throughout the range. BUT: it is not a "5cm F1.5" Sonnar... I am going to speculate that it was originally a 6cm F1.5 lens, and placed in a new mount with the rear module closer to the front group to reduce the focal length to 5cm. I've done that before...

[Brian]

I've named this lens "Oddball". It is a single-helical design, cammed for 5cm. But the rear group is too far in to be a regular 5cm F1.5 Sonnar. It's in more like a Summarit. But it's "not" a Summarit. My best Guess: it used to be a longer focal length and was modified to be a 5cm lens by making the custom optics fixture shown. The helical is a bit rough, but works. It does not use a standard J-3 shim. I made a custom shim using layers of thin arcs of copper tape. There is no way to reset the aperture ring after shimming the lens, or at least without cutting a new metal notch for the lens. SO: the "thin Blue Line" is the new index for the F-Stop.

[Brian]

Next up is "No Ears". That's right, the aperture ring looks like it is from a Post War CZJ 5cm f1.5 lens. But- the Sn puts it as a wartime lens. The Helical is NOT a Wartime lens, but is manufactured in a high-quality metal, not painted, and not stamped with the SN as the German lenses were.

And the Helical was WAY off in the mount. This lens could not focus any where near infinity, or beyond. It does now. I repositioned the Helical into the mount, redid the focus ring, collimated it, and reset the aperture ring. I've gotten pretty good using triple-zero drill bits.

[Brian]

That's all for tonight's lesson on how to tell a kludged and cobbled Sonnar from the real thing.

Three more Sonnar 5cm F1.5's to Come. It will be a week or two before test shots get posted from the Five Lenses.

[Brian]

The Group Portrait, after rebuilding. I'll put more detail of each lens up as I have time.

Left to Right,

"Oddball", No-Ears, Authentic 285xxxx, 285xxxx "assembly Practice", and copy with "ears".

Notice that "assembly Practice" has a Focussing ring that is NOT engraved, the helical was fixed in the mount, and the focus was WAY off. The helical was not misassembled- was not far enough off for that. Infinity focus was no where near correct. I polished the RF Cam down until it was correct for infinity, then Shimmed it.

[Brian]

So why do I think that the Middle lens is the "Authentic" lens?

Well, I could peek under the hood. I removed the helical from the mount and took off the focus ring. This reveals three matching SN's for each part of the mechanism. This was required to lube and correctlt assemble the helical- it was misthreaded and was way-short of infinity. It is close in SN to my rebuilt lens, and is of the same construction. Was it assembled in germany during the war, or in Russia afterwards? No way to tell. All of the glass is coated on this lens. That is NOT true of "assembly practice" 2859xxx.

[Brian]

This is the lens I call "assembly Practice". I can't see how it EVER worked. The focus ring is not engraved, the middle group is not coated, the helical is fixed in the mount- does not unscrew, and the RF Cam was WAY off. I could not get the helical out to remount it, SSSOOOOO- I polished the RF cam down until it was correct for infinity. I'm very stubborn- or a SONNAR is a terrible thing to waste. After getting the mount to focus correctly at infinity, I marked off some disrance settings using the RF of my Canon III and then collimated the optics to agree with the RF Cam. Then, set the aperture ring correctly to index with the Dot.

Ready to be tested- with film. It now is RF coupled and the focus agrees with the Cam.

[Brian]

The last lens is the "copy". Works well, looks great, all the parts are nice- but it is not German in origin. I believe it was made using the original equipment, the mechanism is like the German LTM Sonnars rather than a J-3. The focus helical is simplified on the J-3, and in many ways more flexible as far as adjustments are concerned. The optics module on this lens is the same as "no-ears". The aperture ring on this one has the Sonnar tabs, as do many early J-3's.

The helical was not secured on this one, a set screw from a parts I-61 fixed that.

Shown with "no engraving" for comparison. Note the RF cam is not painted. The Optics module is not painted on this one or on "no_ears"

[Brian]

Okay- FIVE Sonnar 5cm F1.5's, all different. Note that engraving style. Look for those Ears. Look for all the surfaces to be coated. And make sure it has those Internal SN's on the Helical. And little hints- like a being engraved with a DISTANCE SCALE!

And- shoot with them. Next up on this thread will be test results, probably in about a week or so.

[Brian]

Shot the test roll, only to find Qualex has closed it's doors. I'll be swinging by WalMart tomorrow. Hope Fuji does not give up on Film.

Think I'll take up B&W processing again for film. Even thought about an M8 today. Nina gave me a look as in "you don't want a NEW camera.... Just your OLD ones.

[Brian]

Joined Sam's Club, film is in, Fuji is still processing film.

Look for it next week.

[Stephen]

Joined Sam's Club, film is in, Fuji is still processing film.

Look for it next week.

Awaiting for it then.... :proud:

[Brian]

I've created an Album with test shots, each lens at F1.5 and at F4.

http://www.ziforums.com/album.php?albumid=114

At F4, they are good. Some better than others at F1.5.

The SIngle-Helical lens is a focal length longer than 5cm! But- The focus is looking pretty good after shimming.

[like2fiddle]

Brian, thanks for posting the album on the different 1.5's. If I can find the parts, I'd like to build a 5cm/1.5 in ltm.

[kenmedk]

Hi Brian, I am new to the forum and lately got a CZJ 5cm 1,5 Nr. 28000328.
I read your postings and it looks like one of the real one.(small letterings,small m,small red triangle,one big screw for the focusing ring...) Would you mind helping me ID lens dates and doing CLA?

Thanks

Kenneth

[Brian]

Back from vacation: I have seen some in this serial number range, they can be hard to place. The wartime Zeiss lenses have matching serial numbers on the rear module, and inscribed 3 or 4 digit serial numbers on the inner portions of the focus mount. It is hard to determine the age and original without taking the lens apart.

[kenmedk]

Can I send it to you for CLA?

[Brian]

Please remember- I am a"Kitchen Table Hobbyist". I've done several lenses for others, but am not a professional.

Fall and Winter are my Project times- Summer is busy for me. I would be able to take a look when September rolls around, and the pool is closed...

[kenmedk]

Thanks, let me know whenever you can.
I also have a Jupiter 9 M39 need to be adjusted to LTM.

[Brian]

Jupiter-9's are near impossible to get right on a Leica. They can be collimated for a limited range, close-up and wide-open, or for infinity/distance. You have to change the spacing between elements, then shim the lens.

I use my Jupiter-9 on a u4/3rds camera, gave up tring to make it work reliably on my Leica. I use a Nikkor 8.5cm F2 on the Leica.

[the mechanic]

Brian-picked up your thread covering Sonnar cobbling.I'm the fruitcake with the itchies for microscopes (see my thread).My interest in Zeiss gear came about when I got hold of a Zeiss Standard 16 Fluorescence unit.Now I have several Universals.I'd like to know,since you are obviously an experienced repair tech,if there is any hope for my Contarex with a dry rotted shutter.I've hesitated to repair this,as Zeiss boxes are notoriously complex,but is shutter cloth available now that will work properly with this camera?My own experience has been with installing new curtains on a Leica III f.The material available was just too light,and would not allow the shutter to be properly calibrated(the closing curtain would inevitably catch up with the opening curtain before completing travel across focal plane).While on the subject-any experience at all with the Contarex.Mine's a very nice condition original model with serial # U 24175 with w.l. viewfinder and 50mmf/ 2.0 Planar.It came into my hands also equipped with a 21mm f/ 4.5 Biogon(which I adapted to Leica screw mount and which was stolen,along with the camera it was mounted on,along with the other Leicas in the same bag-!!!).I still keep the beautiful double case designed to carry both the 50 and the 21 just to remind myself.I've had a few other Contaxes,Rollies,and a Couple of Linhoffs with Zeiss glass,but have used mostly Nikon and Leica.I'm interested in what you've got to say!Thanks-Greg the Mechanic.

[Brian]

Greg- I do not know enough about the Contarex to giv good advice. I tend to stick to rangefinder lenses, and some minor repair on bodies.



It is a pity about the 21mm lens, and the Leica!